Happily EVEN After: Two Family Lawyers Discuss How To Survive Divorce

Jordan Rickards:              00:01 All right. Welcome to ConservativeOpinion.com’s video podcast. Our guest tonight is divorce attorney and author Carl Taylor, whose new book is “Happily Even After,” and is available for free on his website. MyNJDivorceLawyer.com. Carl’s been practicing for about 10 years, focusing mostly now on complex family litigation. And while most competent attorneys can shepherd people through the legal process itself, it is rare that an attorney tries to help people with the actual human aspect of divorce and its greater impact on one’s personal life and that of his children. And that’s where Carl comes in and that’s what we’re here to discuss. Carl, thank you for joining us.

Carl Taylor:                        00:39 Thank you

Jordan Rickards:              00:40 All right, good to see you my friend. So let’s start with this. What is the thesis of “Happily Even After”?

Carl Taylor:                        00:46 Okay, so obviously and thanks for having me on your show, this sort of started as a joke, right? I called you on Facebook, et Cetera. I have a book, here I am. I’ll give other people ideas. But, um, essentially, uh, you know, when you get through the process long enough, you start to see certain patterns and you see people really hit hard on their future and their present by going through a very contentious divorce process. And we’ve become a little bit better as a society and in the state of New Jersey of doing what’s called alternative dispute resolutions, but a lot of times there’s still collateral damage. And a lot of times the emotional aspect of divorce is sort of put in the corner. And you know, the, the, the major thesis of this book is it’s not a, a game to win. It’s serious business. And sometimes maybe get a little bit less than you deserve or you want in the divorce, but maybe you go to your kid’s graduation or your kid’s wedding one day in the future and you don’t ruin it because you and your ex hate each other. You know what I mean? It’s really about, and part of the book is I have, um, marriage therapists and people who are trained in the mental health aspect provide guest chapters. Because obviously in law school they don’t teach us that to the Jordan.

Jordan Rickards:              01:57 Well, I’ll tell you the first lesson I learned because actually my first job out of law school was clerking for a family court judge who you probably know, Joe Rea over Middlesex. And, uh, he used to say he knew he did the perfect divorce when both sides left the courtroom, equally unhappy, right? It’s not, it’s not something where you can really win. If you’re in divorce court, everyone’s going to lose right off the bat. That’s just, that’s just reality. It’s actually, now I do three different things, right? I do divorces and I do criminal defense and I do civil litigation and divorce by far and away is the most contentious. Like when you’re dealing with criminal defense, both you and the prosecutor pretty much know what the case is worth. And if you’ve got a client, you can talk business with them. You can say, here’s the evidence, here’s what we think we should do.

Jordan Rickards:              02:41 And when you’re representing someone in a personal injury case, they love you because they come into your office, they pay you nothing, and at the end of a few months, you give them a check. The other side, you know, that’s some insurance company. They’re in the business of writing checks. So they don’t hate you. Most of their attorneys are actually pretty cool. But you do, you start getting involved in divorces and it’s sometimes it’s like get ready to do American gladiators over everything. They will spend thousands of dollars to, to file motions over and over things that are worth hundreds of dollars. You know what I mean? And I know that you’ve done this a lot and I’ve done so that we both had this experience. Do you actually, do you find that, uh, you get divorces that really aren’t all that contentious?

Carl Taylor:                        03:22 Yeah. I mean I think part of it is educating the public, but there is a better way and that’s step one. And then, you know, if somebody wants to have the quote unquote the shark, they kind of self select out of our firm, uh, and maybe go to another firm that, you know, might, might be billing themselves for as the shark. Quote unquote So, um, but you know, one of the things that I think is, is interesting, um, people don’t think a lot about the cost benefit analysis like they do in other areas of the law. Because I used to be deputy county counsel for Somerset County. I used to represent joint insurance fund on uncertain cases. And then obviously you’re talking about doing the same kind of work. There’s a cost to everything you do, so you don’t want to spend $5,000 in legal fees to have a result that gets you $500 back. That’s not the way a government would, would think, you know. And that’s not the way an insurance company with, you know, part part of a concern via, you know, we’re under the bent of your show is obviously a conservative minded and obviously on the far left of you in that I’m a moderate conservative.

Jordan Rickards:              04:29 So, Hey Carl, listen, the guest I had on before you today, he was a gay Mexican, illegal alien artist, Trump supporter. So you’re, you’re nothing as far as on the spectrum compared to him. So we have all kinds on the show.

Carl Taylor:                        04:42 Okay, sure. But what concerns me is you know I’m 35 now. You see a lot of people our age bracket saying, you know, I’m just not wanting to get married at all. I’m opting out of the whole thing because I, you know, if somebody goes through a contentious divorce and they think that’s the only way to go through it, then they go to their friends to go, oh, you know, get married or, or, uh, or, you know, your, you know, whoever girl, what was her friends, he goes, oh, I, you know, I, I had paid my actual has been an alimony because really the, our state, you know, New Jersey and a lot of liberal buying seats are really tough on, on alimony that, um, you know, it’s, it’s tough because then people who maybe wouldn’t be very happy being married end up maybe not being married because there’s this sort of, and I think one time I said to you on Facebook Jordan? Like I’m married almost 11 years now and I’m, I’m very happily married, uh, as far as I know. But I, it’d be tough for me to say doing divorce law in the state. Like, you know, it’s a great idea to get married, you know, especially without a prenup today. That’s sad, right?

Jordan Rickards:              05:42 Yeah. But I think alimony is changing somewhat because I’ve noticed that especially a lot of the women judges don’t want to hear that, uh, that some 30 year old woman needs a $60,000 a month in spousal support because her hedge fund manager husband is divorcing her. I mean, you know, you get, you get a a woman judge who’s earning $170,000 a year and she’s worked for every penny she’s got. She doesn’t want to hear somebody saying, well, I’ve been married five years and now I need, you know, 30 years of spousal support or something like that. I mean, she will get you rehabilitated, but she’s got to get a job too. And I think that’s changed a lot, even just in the 15 years that I’ve been practicing.

Jordan Rickards:              06:25 You’re right, there’s more income equality. But there’s also, you know, I think, I think what I’m trying to do with this book and what my practice is trying to do is, um, you know, right now there’s people who stay married in our state that really want to get divorced and they’re afraid they can’t afford it. And that actually gives New Jersey at a lower divorce rate, which is kind of ironic. Um, but also you have people who maybe would be very happy being married, like I am, that they’re self selecting out of it because they’re so concerned about, you know, the pressure and the divorce rate continues to decline. And I actually read a study that said that the, um, the divorce rate is actually lower amongst conservatives, which isn’t surprising, but in red states there’s actually a higher divorce rate. And I think it’s because there’s easier back, there’s an easier exit, right?

Jordan Rickards:              07:07 But there’s also, I think in red states, a greater emphasis on getting married in the first place. The areas that have the lowest divorce rates are all the deep blue areas where you have like three out of four kids born to single mothers. Like you go to like Camden, that’s a very low divorce rate because they have, they have a very low marriage rate in the first place. It’s like, it’s like pre-divorce, you know what I mean? So those numbers, um, there are a little bit manipulative, but I guess what you’re saying, so your book is actually useful not just for people who are getting divorced but also people who are thinking about getting married and just want to kind of familiarize themselves with what they should and shouldn’t be scared of. Is that fair to say?

Carl Taylor:                        07:45 Yeah, I think it is very targeted to New Jersey people go through a divorce and sort of a companion. But you know, what I want to talk about today, since that’s not exciting to be for everybody because you have a national show, is the idea of what does it mean to have a society where family becomes less important, where divorce rates don’t matter and where people are just not getting married at all. And you know, we’re now relying more and more upon the government. It used to be, you go to your church, you go to your family. If you fell on hard times, even people, you know from blue collar backgrounds like I come from, that’s that, you know, you weren’t necessarily going straight to the government for assistance for these types of things. So obviously I’m not entirely opposed to such things. You need some of these programs, but we’ve sort of de-emphasized that family unit, and I think that if you have this society where people who don’t want to be married or stuck in marriages together and all the people who like maybe you should be married but they’re afraid to be married, it can be look back marriage, like I said, it would be the most rewarding thing in the entire world.

Carl Taylor:                        08:47 And it’s hard for me sometimes to reconcile with some of my own personal feelings. Um, you know, sort of engaging and getting divorced. Right.

Jordan Rickards:              08:55 Because are you a person of faith or,

Carl Taylor:                        09:00 yeah, for sure. And that’s something, my upbringing, I grew up Irish Catholic, so it was advertised, you know, you don’t get divorced. Right. Although we do have as high a rate as anybody else.

Jordan Rickards:              09:09 Well, yeah, I mentioned it because, you know, my faith is very important to me. I’m one of those, a born again evangelical types. And I’ve been very conflicted throughout my entire legal career about doing divorces. Now some of them are easy to rationalize because you deal with perhaps a woman who’s in like a physically violent relationship, right? And it’s easy to say, well I’m rescuing that person and I’m happy to do that, believe me. But there are a lot of just kind of run of the mill divorces where it’s like, well you know, my wife and I found a love 10 years ago and I’m getting tired of feeling like I’m the only one in this, in this marriage. And now it’s time for a divorce. And, and I kind of struggled with that to be honest with you. And, and the way I rationalize it is saying, well if I don’t do it, someone else is going to do it. And that person could be dishonest, they can be unethical or you know, maybe they don’t even really care about this person cause you and I actually care about our clients. We try to get them on the right road and make sure they have a life after this. But, so that’s how I rationalize it. But I agree 100% I actually tried to talk some people out of divorces if I don’t think it’s appropriate, you know,

Carl Taylor:                        10:14 before we proceed. Have you tried marriage therapy, what are the problems that sometimes like you say, just notice people probably should should be separated, but sometimes you go, hey, come back in a few weeks and you know, let me know if the marriage therapist route works.

Jordan Rickards:              10:28 Especially if there are kids. I mean if, if a couple of knuckleheads at age 20 get married and you know, six months later they just, you know, they don’t care anymore, whatever. I don’t really care too much about that. But you know, I think one of the worst things we’ve done, and I’ve seen this in my lifetime is, is Hollywood has kind of conditioned us to believe that divorce is an easy answer that’s kind of consequence free. I remember when I was a kid, a movie came out with Robin Williams, Mrs Doubtfire where he gets divorced and you know, it’s hard on the kids at first, but it’s actually kind of funny. And then they work it out in the kids are fine. And there was another movie called bye bye love, same idea. You know, divorce happens and it’s hard on the kids at first. Everything worked itself out.

Jordan Rickards:              11:09 And the reality is, man, the kids are never the same after that. Whatever trajectory they were on to be whatever person they were going to be, once that divorce happens, you know, there are better ways and worse ways to handle it, but they’re never going to be that same person they were going to be for better or worse. It’s like dropping an atomic bomb on these kids. So, you know, the, I think Hollywood is really lying to us, uh, about, about how it, it’s kind of an easy solution to problems that people are used to just fight through.

Carl Taylor:                        11:37 Yeah. Movies like Kramer versus Kramer are a lot more realistic I think, I think we sort of live in a disposable society some extent in general. Right. And we’ve sort of gotten to the point where, um, even relationships can sometimes be viewed that way. It’s transactional versus lasting. But I, you know, I see a lot of people and uh, you know, I, I’m definitely not somebody who’s anti divorce. If it’s what you want to, you want to do then that obviously you know, your adult since a contract, uh, and you can get out of it, but there’s definitely a way to do it, uh, where you can protect your children’s interests. You can not, you know, you can kind of, there’s a lot of moments in a divorce where an attorney can either escalate or deescalate a situation. Definitely. I tried to deescalate situations when possible Jordan, I know from my experience with you that you’re the same way.

Carl Taylor:                        12:31 And I think if you had more people, you know, thinking about the emotional side of the divorce and this book is really deep into the emotional side of divorce, even uncomfortable with uncomfortably separate. Um, you know, cause cause uh, you know, I tried to be too emotional but, and I tried to be very practical and are for my clients. But it does talk about like, Hey, if you’re gonna get divorced, it’s like training for a marathon. You better eat right? And that better get your head in the right spot. I’m going to be over tomorrow and it’s going to be a grind. And if you don’t go through it with the proper mindset, you could really impact yourself and your kids. Not just now, like you said, but moving forward.

Jordan Rickards:              13:08 Yeah. You know, the funny thing about divorce is a lot of times clients will come to us with kind of conflicting wants, right? Like it’s this horrible thing and they want it over with as soon as possible and they want a maximum resolution in a monetary sense. It’s like, well, you can’t have both those things. I can make this end now, if you’re willing to give up more, or I can get you every penny you want, but it’s going to take me a year or a year and a half to do it, and you’re going to pay me $30,000. Realistically, if you, if you include a trial, because I’m noticing in my practice, I’m sure you’re about the same way. I’m doing about, I’m billing about $15,000 without trials. And then you can, you can easily double that with a trial. Right? So I can get you what you want. If you want to live with this for the next year to year and a half.

Jordan Rickards:              13:50 And you know the judges, the judges don’t want to do trials either. So you start, you think you’re getting close to that trial date and your case is going to be over next week. No, no. That’s your one day of trial and then you’re not going to finish it that day. And the judge will say, well come back in three weeks. We’ll do your second day of trial and the trial can last months. So you know, I think it’s important at the outset that we let people know divorce is not quick. And I tell the people exactly what you said, it is not a sprint. It is a marathon, you know?

Carl Taylor:                        14:16 Yeah. I’ve had divorces that were one month from the time they met with me, to Two know, three or four years. And the, the sort of a paradox, right? It’s the people who most want to have control over the situation are the people most likely to go to a trial because they can’t come to terms. And then when were at trial, it’s almost entirely out of control. The end result, you get a decision from the judge and look, you people can make themselves and each other miserable for, you know, longer than their actual marriage. And you know, it doesn’t mean they’re bad people, but it does mean, I think oftentimes they’re missing. So, you know, my website, MyNJdivorcelawyer.com, this book, it’s all part of a sort of philosophy of there’s a different way to do things. Um, my partner, Lisa Stein-Browning, she’s heavy into mediation and collaborative law. I think those things have helped. I don’t think they’re the full solution as yet. I think there’s probably a way to make things easier in the future, but until we have a process that, you know, acts in the children’s best interests and protects it, we’re always going to have some fallout from the divorce.

Jordan Rickards:              15:23 Yeah. And that’s always the guiding principle, right? Best interest of the children. But how often does that happen? You know, mediation is great. It’s, it’s uh, it’s something I use a lot actually. Um, and, and when I tell people is you have to be ready to compromise. But what I tell myself, not them is compromise is the art of letting the other guy have it your way. So when I’m dealing with the client, you know, I, I try not to be heavy handed with that person. What I instead tried to do is let that client arrive at the answers themselves. So instead of me saying, look, you don’t want to do this, this is going to cost you $10,000, whatever. I’ll say, well, look, um, gee, we could do it that way. But you know, that could cost you like $10,000. Is that what you’d want to do? And when, when it’s their decision, then it’s a lot easier, I think for them to come to the right decision as opposed to some of these attorneys. It just kind of try to, to push people down the road.

Carl Taylor:                        16:16 Yeah. Another thing that this book hits on is a lot of times, you know, if your client doesn’t understand the process, they might not have realistic goals, right? They might go on the Internet and find some law from North Dakota or something doesn’t apply. And they come back and say, how come I can’t lifetime alimony after five years? But if you take the time to explain to your clients, and what I tried to do with the book, with the website is to give them, I want clients who are going to take the time to actually understand the process. If I make those tools available to them and it cuts down their costs, but they’re not paying me to explain to them every step of the way. Cause I’ve now laid out books where I’m, where I laid out a website articles. Um, so once they fully understand the process, then they can say, all right, what are my goals? And then you’ve got the discussion’s about are they reasonable goals or not? But a lot of times it seems like people kind of go through the process and it’s kind of like, you know, was it Plato and the key and whatever. They don’t need it. There’s a way out.

Jordan Rickards:              17:15 You know, there’s kind of this like reverse incentive program with you and I. Like when if I do a PI case, the better I do, the more money I get paid and that’s the way it should be in divorce. The better we do, the less money we get paid because we’ve done a good divorce, it’s done efficiently, and we don’t see these people again. When I, when I was a clerk, I started in an o four and I had files in that office dating back to the mid eighties because people would get divorced and then every six to 12 months they’re back in court arguing about something else. Oh, is it a change of circumstances? I want more visitation. Want to pay less than an alimony, less than child support. He’s not paying enough. And you know, it usually started with frankly bad attorneys who didn’t do a good enough job writing a marital settlement agreement in the first place. But then these people become like an annuity plan for them. They keep coming back, you know, it’s like every, every 18 months or something, you could count on these people showing up at your office with $10,000 to pay you. So the bad attorney gets rewarded by making more money and the good attorney like you and I, and you especially giving away your book for free, you know, we get rewarded by having a,

Carl Taylor:                        18:20 that’s funny. Yeah, you’re right. And also a lot of studies show that people don’t know the difference between a good attorney and a bad attorney. It’s very hard for, you know, it’s like for, for reading the guy or the girl, you know, the staff and the doctor are nice to me. I’m thinking they did a good job, but did they learn the proper tests? It’s very hard if you’re a layperson in any field to understand whether your expert is knowledgeable or not. I mean, you get a roof done and look up at it, you’re like, oh, the price seemed right. Uh, the roof look good. Then later when it’s raining on your annual, realize your roof for us as the same way as some of these legal documents. So you know, you hope that you car but everything else and you do a good job for people that work. It’s around, but sometimes a, it probably does, right.

Jordan Rickards:              19:08 Or maybe or maybe a, your client fires you and does a claw back on the credit card payment and then you’re stiffed. Okay.

Carl Taylor:                        19:16 Stranger things have happened.

Jordan Rickards:              19:17 Yeah, I know, I know. Well you know, that’s, that’s, that’s part of the problem is in, and like I said, kind of bring this full circle is when you and I get into a business where we’ve done our job, when both sides are kind of equally unhappy, you know, we can, we can do our best, but at the end of the day it, you know, people aren’t going to be happy. It put it in simplest terms. That’s just the reality of divorce. So what, what do you recommend Carl then, than to people who are considering a divorce? Like what the people who do it right, what are they doing and the people who do it wrong, what are they doing?

Carl Taylor:                        19:55 Well it touches a lot of things we’ve already gone over. First off, get informed, you know, at the end of the day, it’s gonna be your divorce. Anybody else’s, you have attorneys, um, or maybe not, but you’ll, you’ll have these experts who will assist you through the process, but ultimately it’s your life. Once, once I’m done with the file, I always say that divorce agreements to playbook, uh, like a game of monopoly that played, you know, that rule book is going to tell you what to do. Hey, it’s Thanksgiving and Adi or who has the kids, right? And you’re going to turn your rule book, then a Saint Mary’s spare time. Um, but so it’s, it’s getting informed. Obviously reading my book would be a great start if you’re a New Jersey resident. Um, it’s, um, making sure you get a good referral for your divorce attorney. You talked to a few people and figure out as best and it down to fit, right. I’m not the best divorce attorney for every person in New Jersey. There’s a certain group of people are from would be great for certain subset that be great for your firm, but we’re not for everyone. Right?

Jordan Rickards:              20:51 Yeah. I’ve noticed that a lot that people try to hire attorneys who match their personality in family law. And a lot of times like if you hate your husband, you want an attorney who’s going to go into court and hate your husband as much as you and hate his attorney. And actually, I think, uh, and I think you can relate to this. You know, I’ve, I’ve gotten in trouble with the, with clients before because, you know, look, there aren’t that many of us who do divorces. And when we go to court, we see the same people over and over again. And most of us are actually pretty nice people and we’re all, you know, a lot of us are friendly with each other if not friends with each other. So I’m not going to go do a divorce against Carl Taylor and hate the guy and, and yell at them and screaming, kicking, carry on.

Jordan Rickards:              21:31 I’m going to, I’m going to present my case to you. I’m going to say, here’s where we are. You’re, you’re probably gonna have something close to the same assessment as me cause it isn’t rocket science for goodness sake. Whatever we disagree on, we’re going to work out pretty easily. And so that’s right for some people who want to do an efficient divorce and save money and have a good post divorce experience. But for the other people who just want to want to fight over everything you want to, Yo, they’re the ones who are going to be coming back for the next 15 years. And they’re the ones who, you know, you’re going to find, they start weaponizing their kids. And you know what, uh, this is my, this is my holiday and you, you kept the kid and extra hour. So I’m keeping the kid an extra hour now. I mean, that’s when things start to get really ugly. When you, when you, when you start out a divorce and it’s, it’s like war of the roses, it generally doesn’t end with a piece of court. It just does it, it ends with a cease fire and it’s temporary, but it’s gonna it’s going to be a hot war again soon.

Jordan Rickards:              22:25 Right, right, right. It’s Kinda, it’s Kinda like, you know, North Korea, like they, they, there’s kind of a quiet tension there, but there’s, there’s still have missiles pointed at each other. You

Carl Taylor:                        22:33 know, I mean, I think part we’re talking about us doesn’t have to be that way. The cool thing, I think a lot of times people think that’s the way it should be. Almost like the act that way because they think that’s the way they should feel or us the way that it should be. But really it’s, you know, what, it’s most similar to my understanding is from death and it’s a matter of getting through the stages of grief to come out the other side. Um, so it’s, it’s weird in that it’s in a form of death, right? But if people could realize it’s also sort of, it’s not a total death, there’s the beginning, you get a chance to, to explore. Um, you know, uh, you know, new opportunities if you do things right way with as little damage as possible. Hello. You have to process the emotions, right?

Carl Taylor:                        23:18 And your divorce attorney, you know, most of us aren’t trained in the emotional side of things. So, you know, I used to be kind of nervous Tom People like, oh, I think maybe you should talk to a therapist because they’re calling me all the time. Right. We’ve got about the best therapist here. Um, but now you know, now that I’ve got more experience, uh, I’ll tell, I’ll tell, I’ll tell somebody, look, I think maybe you need to find somebody independent and talk with them and that’s going to be another aspect again for this divorce suddenly got to skate.

Jordan Rickards:              23:46 Yeah. The other thing I try to emphasize to people is, and you kind of touched on this, but when at all possible, you don’t want the judge to have to make the decision for better or worse. I find that people are happiest when at least they know that this is their decision, that they made this, they crafted it. You know, cause if you got, if you go in front of a judge, he’s not going to know the last 20 years of your life. He’s got a million other things in his docket. You know, you get to present your case and the other guy presents his butt and that’s, and he’s just going to split the split the baby like Solomon and that’s it. And you don’t know what’s going to happen. But at least if you work something yet, you might not be happy with it.

Jordan Rickards:              24:22 But at least it’s your decision. And, and I find that the people who do the best divorce is almost uniformly that’s the case. Now there are some times there are kind of like, you reach an impasse and a good judge will let you conference the case. And I’ll say, here’s how I see it. Go tell your clients or something. Okay. And then that can kind of lubricate some things a little bit. But for the most part, the best of forces uniformly are the ones where the parties are able to work together and put their own stamp on it. I think.

Carl Taylor:                        24:48 Yeah, obviously, but I would say that, you know, one thing I’ve been told a few times during divorce, Hey, I wish you were a little word rested and I can be aggressive. I can, I can be nasty. You know, I, I have those qualities and be for sure. Um, but I don’t think a lot of times it’s in the client’s best interests. And I tell people, look, you want to pay somewhere to stay on top of the conference room table and y’all talk real loss. I guess you could pay me and I’ll do it, but I’d really rather not. Because at the end of the day, it’s really, it’s sort of a performance art that doesn’t benefit anybody yet. And a lot of times we’re talking about mediation or four way conference where it’s nonbinding and there’s really no decision maker in the room. So, you know, what I kind of do now is I let people, you know, sort of get their emotions out because I think that they need to, but I sort of clients before and during and after, there’s sort of a limit to how much emotion you really can’t expect out of these, your divorce lawyer because I’m sort of there to try and help facilitate the process of getting the case settled because 98% of the time that’s where it’s going to wind up.

Jordan Rickards:              25:56 Yeah. And it compromises, I think the attorneys judgment too. When we start to get emotional, it’s one thing for the client to do it, but you and I have to be levelheaded and dispassionate because you know, if, if, if we start doing this thing where we’re just throwing the gauntlet down, all of a sudden we’re not making good decisions and keep in mind, you and I are getting paid either way and this divorce is going to be over. We’ll pick up the next file. But it’s the client that winds up getting hurt. So I don’t know that it’s really benefits people to have these attorneys who show up to court with like veins bulging out of their foreheads and they’re fighting on everything. When you can’t win, every divorce is just not designed for that. A divorce is for, for both sides to reach a reasonable compromise and move on.

Jordan Rickards:              26:33 We’ll look Carl, I know it’s late. I’m really glad you came and joined us. Is there anything else that you want to leave our audience with or any, anything else you think we should know? No. And just want to say thanks again for having me on the show. And unlike other areas of the law, grizzly, no fault divorce, it’s two people who tried to got married and things change. So it’s funny that we have, we haven’t divorce where there’s really no fault versus a lot of areas of the law there is fault, right? And criminal law or personal injury, there’s usually an actor who is to blame, right? It’s usually two decent people who just no longer makes sense. So if everyone kind of keep that in mind as much as there’s that emotion between you and the frustration of a failed relationship and kind of like cable that are or, or addressed it outside of the court system through therapy or, or gone for long jogs or meditation or whatever it might be.

Carl Taylor:                        27:28                   I think we can have a much healthier system and then I think, you know, it’s uh, for society when people get married because you know, it won’t be as horrible the thing to go through in terms of getting divorced.

Jordan Rickards:              27:39 When whenever clients visit me, the first thing I do is I let them tell their story and why they’re getting divorced because they all want to do that. And then I say, okay, I’m sorry you went through that, but that has nothing to do with what I’m going to be doing. I’m going to be doing accounting for you. I’m adding up assets and figuring out spousal support. Child support is just a formula. We’re going to figure out visitation and that’s it. Your husband was the worst person. I’m sorry, your wife, you know how old at the moon because she was crazy. Well, I didn’t tell you to marry her, so who’s crazier?

Jordan Rickards:              28:07 But right now, right now we’re just dividing up assets and dividing up the kids and you’re really going to, I’ll do the work, but you’re going to control most of the process. So. All right, well look ladies, and Devon’s was Carl Taylor, who’s a great attorney up in a kind of Somerset, Hunterdon, New Jersey Ish area, right? That’s like Summerton burn unit, Union county’s, that kind of area or accounting. Most of central New Jersey. Every now and then you come into my area in Middlesex. See, we’re not really competitors and more Middlesex and mammoth and you’re, you know, and I like you anyway, so don’t care. All right, so the book is happily even after which you can get on his website for free, even if you don’t live in New Jersey. It’s useful stuff in it. The website is MyNJDivorceLawyer.com a link to that under this. Um, Carl, thank you for joining us. And as always, it’s great to see you, and I’ll talk to you soon, my friend.

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